#12: Katherine Johnson at the kitchen table
TRANSCRIPT
Moiya McTier
Welcome to pale blue pod the astronomy podcast for people who are overwhelmed by the universe but want to be its friend.
Corinne Caputo
I'm Corinne Cabuto, a writer and comedian and friend to the universe with help from Moiya
Moiya McTier
With help from me I am the Moiya in question. I'm Dr. Moiya. McTier. I'm an astrophysicist a folklorist and, yeah, I fucking love the universe. We're buds. Hell yeah.
Corinne Caputo
I'm so excited about today's episode.
Moiya McTier
Yes today's episode is gonna be great. But the recording location.
Corinne Caputo
Yeah, let me talk about where we are. So we are in my aunt's kitchen, in her old house. And I love being here because it's kind of where all the adults tend to gather during the party. And when I was a kid, it was always so I always like wanted to be where the grown ups were. And it's just so fun to be in... just a place where you're like, so loved and there's so much community.
Moiya McTier
Yeah, that is really nice. Kitchens are such a cozy place. It's where the cooking happens. It's where the talking happens. Like, yeah, you're right. There's a lot of community in the kitchen. I can feel it in in the room.
Corinne Caputo
Yeah, you can feel it. Like exactly other people's kitchens that feel like so lived in and loved are always a treat.
Moiya McTier
While we are sitting in this cozy kitchen, we have another bio episode for you where we dig into the life and the work of someone who helped humanity as a whole become closer to the universe by studying it for us. So today, we are talking about the one and only I say that but I imagine her name is actually pretty common. Katherine Johnson.
Corinne Caputo
I think you're right. Katherine Johnson does feel like it could be a very popular name. But she was one of a kind in space terms.
Moiya McTier
I am very excited to learn about her life. And I know that Corinne, you did some digging into where Katherine Johnson came from?
Corinne Caputo
Yeah, let me tell you about her early life. So if anyone has seen Hidden Figures, Katherine Johnson was played by Taraji P. Henson in that movie, but the real Katherine Johnson was born August 26 1918, in White Sulphur Springs, West Virginia so long ago is really long time ago.
Moiya McTier
She lived through the Great Depression!
Corinne Caputo
She did, and she lived through a lot was she she made it to the new millennium. She...well, should I just spoil it and say she did pass away I'm sorry. One I'm sure you can imagine. A woman who was born in 1918 is not alive today. But she lived a really long and cool life. So her parents are Joyllete Roberta and Joshua McKinley Coleman. She was the youngest of four kids and when she was born Gren Briar Greenbrier County if I'm saying that right in West Virginia, didn't offer public schooling for Black students past the eighth grade. So the Colemans arranged for the kids to attend high school in a town called Institute West Virginia, which is about two hours away from White Sulphur Springs. So
Moiya McTier
Oh wow, far away like a two hour commute each way every day. That sucks.
Corinne Caputo
So what they ended up doing was like they split their time between Institute during the school year and White Sulphur Springs in the summer. And the school they went to is on the campus of West Virginia State College and Johnson was enrolled and she was 10. So the family split their time. And then she graduated from high school at 14, which is way younger than the average high school graduate.
Moiya McTier
What a precocious little shit really, truly, I don't think anyone has ever called Katherine Johnson a precocious little shit.
Corinne Caputo
She seems like really, like earnest. But she matriculated at West Virginia State College where she took every single math course offered after she graduated from high school. So she's like the youngest student there blew through all the math classes. One of her professors added new math courses to be taught just for Katherine to take. I'm sure other people like probably take them to but I mean, I don't know that but it just seems so like her. These people really wanted her to be educated and that is so lovely. So she graduated at 18 summa cum laude in 1930. from college, with degrees in mathematics and French and she took a teaching job at a public school in Virginia. So West Virginia integrated its graduate schools in 1939. And West Virginia State President Dr. John W. Davis selected Katherine and two other men to be the first black students offered spots at West Virginia University. So she Katherine left her teaching job and enrolled in the graduate math program there. But at the end of the first session, she decided to leave school and start a family with her first husband. So she returned to teaching years later with her when her three daughters got older. But in 1952, a family member told her about open positions at the All Black West Area computing section at the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics is Langley Laboratory, which was headed NACA, NACA. It's a mouthful, but it's headed by a fellow West Virginian, Dorothy Vaughn, and Katherine and her husband decided to move the family to Newport News, Virginia to pursue the opportunity. And Katherine began work at Langley in the summer of 1953. Yes,
Moiya McTier
yes, she did. Was it NASA at that point? Or was it still NACA?
Corinne Caputo
I think it was still NACA, because that's what NASA's website described it as to
Moiya McTier
you. So yeah, it was it was NACA, and that was, what did that stand for? Again,
Corinne Caputo
the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics.
Moiya McTier
Interesting. Okay. Yeah. So, National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics. And now it is NASA, or the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Yeah.
Corinne Caputo
Which that seems much more official than like a committee and advisory committee,
Moiya McTier
I agree! I guess. I mean, probably because it was got more funding. And as they became more of a legit institution in the eyes of the federal government, cool. Seems like she really loved learning. And like she was a little nerd.
Corinne Caputo
Yeah truly, I mean, to graduate high school at 14 and then college at 18. That's hard to like, you're a lot younger than the other people there. The social like component to it is totally different than like any college we probably experienced.
Moiya McTier
So right, especially back then. And as a 14 year old
Corinne Caputo
in West Virginia. Yeah. She didn't end up graduating from graduate school.
Moiya McTier
I don't think yeah, no, I don't I don't think she did.
Corinne Caputo
But boy, did she do enough work that it seems like she, she might as well have
Moiya McTier
me she had a lot of experience. A moment of silence for all of the mostly women who have had to put their careers on hold to raise a family because that was the default and men's not going to do it. I wish that she didn't have to do that. But I'm glad that you know she's still Yeah, after she made that decision. And after her kids grew up, she still made such a big difference in her chosen career. Yeah, she really did. I went to college at 17. And even that was hard enough because as a 17 year old, I couldn't open my own bank account. I couldn't sign my own permission waivers. I couldn't even buy my own cough medicine, my own, like flu medicine.
Corinne Caputo
Oh my god, and you're like on your own in a way where you need to
Moiya McTier
exactly So I had to have my college roommate buy me cough syrup. Because they wouldn't sell it to me as a minor. I can't. It was hard enough at 17 I cannot imagine going at 14. I mean,
Corinne Caputo
and then it's like so clearly about like in pursuit of academics, which I so admire, and I'm so glad that teacher was like, Okay, you're done with this math. Like, let's go make more math classes for you.
Moiya McTier
I love that for her. It actually is really, it sucks that we had to do this, that so many black Americans had to do this. But they often we often ended up having to teach ourselves and create opportunities for ourselves when they weren't made available to us by the public sector. Yeah. And the government. Yeah. Damn. Good for her. Yes. So I read up about her work at NASA after she joined in 1953. But I want to set the scene a little bit socially in terms of, of race and, and sex in the 1950s in the south. You know, I'm, I would hope that everyone listening knows it wasn't good. We can start with that baseline, it was not a good time to have melanin in your skin in the US. So she starts in 1953. That is just one year before Brown v. Board of Education, integrate schools across the country. Individual states had integrated schools earlier. So she you know, I think West Virginia did integrate in like the late 30s or early 40s. But still, it wasn't national until a year after she joined NACA. So she was growing up in a time of segregation. She starts working at NASA and a time of segregation when people don't expect black people and definitely not black women to have this education. Because unlike we just said she and people around her had to make those opportunities. It wasn't a given that she was going to get those. So segregation still very much a thing in terms of education, in terms of what bathrooms you can use. So that scene in Hidden Figures where the guy like knocks down the bathroom sign saying that it's for whites only like that. That was a thing. It was segregated in bathrooms in swimming pools and restaurants and water fountains. Interracial marriage was still illegal for more than another decade. I think Loving v. Virginia happened in 1966 or 1967. Martin Luther King hadn't talked about his dream yet that was going to happen in 1963. So yeah, black people and white people lived in different worlds, and for Katherine Johnson, to walk into NACA, to walk into this research based space full of white men who had all the opportunities given to them was such a big deal. So that's, that's the race side of things. But on the on the sex side of things, it wasn't much. It wasn't better. Women were barred at NASA from most jobs, including research and administration. They were not allowed to be astronauts, like the NASA just decided that if you have a uterus, you can't go into space. Because of course, you can't. And most women, if they worked at NASA, they were either secretaries, or they were computers, meaning they did calculations in their heads or on paper or with little calculator machines, checking the calculations done by the actual machine computers, which back then were still kind of unreliable. And definitely untrusted by by most humans. So Katherine Johnson, as a black woman had to deal with both of these things. Because intersectionality means that you're not just facing the consequences of one aspect of your identity, but of all of them. Today. 54% of NASA employees are white, and just a third are women. Okay. That's, that's today, well that it was last year in their report in 2022. Imagine 70 years ago.
Corinne Caputo
Yeah. It's really hard to imagine. And also, like, it's not that far ago, I think when we think about the progress, or lack thereof, of it's so weird to think of segregation as like Katherine Johnson died, what, two years ago, like almost three like that, [Correction: Katherine Johnson passed in Feburary of 2020] and this was her early life like she was entering her, like, career job. And this is still happening. So this is, this history is so close, you can touch it, and it's it's so still ingrained. And we're still facing like the repercussions and the ripples of effect. Yeah, yeah.
Moiya McTier
We couldn't we couldn't. We couldn't make this episode without having a little history lesson about the Jim Crow era, especially in the South. Because she she was born in West Virginia. The Langley center where she worked for NASA was in Virginia. So all of this is happening in the South. Yeah, it just needed to be said while at NASA, and she she worked there for more than 30 He years for 33 years from 1953 to 1986, Katherine Johnson worked at NACA, and then NASA and she was such a valuable part of NASA. She made a lot of amazing contributions. And there are historical moments that wouldn't have happened without Katherine Johnson's help. Which is wild to say like not many people can say that. I just, I watched Forrest Gump for the first time recently. I wasn't expecting that to be what the movie was like, but in a way they seem to be around for a lot of important moments in America's history. Katherine Johnson was around for a lot of important moments in NASA's history. So I'm not gonna say she was the Forrest Gump of NASA. But I will say that Forrest Gump was the Katherine Johnson of the US.
Corinne Caputo
Yes, Forrest Gump was Katherine Johnson, Forrest Gump.
Moiya McTier
When she was hired in 1953, she was hired as a computer as a, like a human computer to do these calculations. Digital computers did exist, but they were really new. And they weren't entirely trusted. Sometimes they would give wrong calculations. Sometimes they would just like blackout and stop working. So humans were required to check the work of the digital computers, which I find hilarious. S
Corinne Caputo
Thats so funny, because I would never double check what my phone tells me.
Like, Okay, that's true.
Moiya McTier
When I read that, I was like, oh, people today like they cannot relate. Yeah, no way idea of having to check what your computer or what your calculator says,
Corinne Caputo
I'll wake up and I'll ask Google the temperature. And I'm like, that's what's going on.
Moiya McTier
Okay. Like sometimes, just to be sure if I'm doing a simple math problem, I'll check it on my phone. But the idea of checking something from my phone in my head, that's not the direction that goes, yeah.
Corinne Caputo
It's like, I think I find comfort and thinking of like, what the phone tells me is truth. Just throw that chaotic element in, it's crazy.
Moiya McTier
So that's where she started. She started as a computer. But she was just so talented. She was really good at what she did. And she asked a lot of questions. She was really curious, always trying to learn more, and learn more about the context around her because she had a background in math, not a background in aeronautics, or Astronomy, or rocket launchers, like she didn't. She wasn't trained in the stuff that they did at NACA, but she learned it on the job because she was very impressive. So when people noticed the impressive work she did, she got taken from the that West computing center that Dorothy Vaughn was heading, and she got moved to the flight research division, which is where she got to help with all of these historic missions coming out of NASA. So here I have, I have a little timeline of some of her biggest contributions, starting in 1960, when she co authored a paper with someone else in the flight research division whose name is honestly unimportant right now. And then that paper was called, "
Determination of Azimuth Angle at Burnout for Placing a Satellite Over a Selected Earth Position"
Corinne Caputo
Click Baity, if you ever heard one
Moiya McTier
I know if you see that headline on your news feed, you're gonna click on it. The Russian bots should have used titles like that if they wanted to impact the election.
Corinne Caputo
Their one mistake
Moiya McTier
I know. Cuz it wasn't successful. Oops. Anyway, back back to this paper, which follows in a long history of scientific papers with truly terrible names. But really all this paper is doing is trying to determine the best launch angle for a rocket launch. If you are trying to place a satellite over a specific point of the Earth. Like if you if you want it to be over a certain latitude and longitude how What angle do you launch it at? And when? That's what the paper was? Yeah, it's a lot of geometry and trigonometry, and cool math.
Corinne Caputo
I feel like we've probably used that so much since
Moiya McTier
Yes, yes, we absolutely have. Also, it was historically important, because this was the first time any woman not just a black woman, not a black person. Any woman got credit for a paper coming out of this flight research division. 1960
Corinne Caputo
Wow.
Moiya McTier
Fuck us.
Okay, so she co authored that paper in 1960. The next year in 1961 is when the big moment in the movie is from. So the big moment where you see Katherine Johnson's use, I guess, to NASA happened in the movie when Alan Shepard was going to become the first American in space. This in the 1960s, During the Cold War. Russia has already launched Yuri Gagarin into space he became the first human in space doing a full orbit around the Earth, like at least most of an orbit around the Earth, they had launched Sputnik. So they had already put satellites up in space, and the US was really trying to compete. So the first person that we sent into any sort of space was Alan Shepard in 1961, he did a 15 minute long sub orbital flight, so he didn't actually get up into low Earth orbit. But he did launch in a rocket through most of the atmosphere. He was up there for 15 minutes. And it was Katherine Johnson in 1961, who calculated the trajectory, or like the flight path that he would take. So they launched, he landed somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean, and she calculated what that path would look like, using a lot of geometry, and knowledge about, like, what force was the rocket being propelled with. So that's 1961. The next year in 1962, is the big moment from the movie, when we're about to send our first American human into orbit around the Earth. His name was John Glenn, I don't think I'd ever like heard of him before watching the Hidden Figures movie, I really didn't know anything about the history of NASA or space exploration. But John Glenn was the first American to go into orbit around Earth. Digital computers, calculated and controlled his trajectory. Once he was up in space, like they had that all planned out, it was going to work. But John Glenn was from this generation that didn't really trust the computers. And so that makes sense. And this is a quote, he asked the engineers before he would get into the rocket, he asked that the engineers to quote, get the girl. No, she was 44 years old. Oh, he was 41 years old. Oh, so she's in her 40s. She's older than he is. And he's telling the engineers to go get the girl. Yeah, don't like it's so
Corinne Caputo
like, double like it's so twisted to because it's clearly like, I respect and trust this person more than I trust a computer. And yet, I need to make sure that she does not think she's better than I am. Is allegedly.
Moiya McTier
Engineers go get the girl. And then this is coming from her recollection of the event. But Katherine Johnson when she was interviewed about it said that she remembered John Glenn saying, If she says they're good, meaning that like the numbers, the calculations from the computer, if she says they're good, then I'm ready to go. Ah, yeah. So and I think that's a line in the movie too. Or at least it's it's similar in the movie, he says that he'll only go if she does the calculation. So that that is that is accurate, but she was responsible for doing the trajectory calculations to calculate the the flight path of John Glenn's orbit around the Earth for the first time. Imagine being that trusted by by someone,
Corinne Caputo
it's so much pressure. And I think that, I mean, I'm feeling scared thinking about it, because I'm like, I would not know where to start. Like, you don't need me to do this. But she's so kind of fluent in this. And just seems like innately gifted that of course, you know, you can successfully say you're, you'll be safe if you do this.
Moiya McTier
Yeah, by this point. She has a proven track record at NACA or NASA. And she has shown everyone that she's really good at math. They trust her to do that. She's done it, she does a couple of other things like she's very heavily involved in getting satellites around Earth like the the program that we now call Landsat, she was very involved in. And then in 1969, when we finally launched people to the moon, for the first time, we this is the moment where we felt like we really won the Cold War, because we got humans to the moon before the Russians did. Katherine Johnson calculated the trajectory that was necessary to sync up the Apollo lunar lander with the command and service module that stays in orbit around the moon. So there are two parts to this thing. You have the module that can house like three astronauts, and that stays in orbit around the moon. And then you have a lander that will connect to the to the module, the astronauts can then get into the lander, and then it'll take them down to the moon. And when they're ready to go home and the lander lifts off of the moon, it connects to the module and then and then the astronauts go home. But that's a lot. That's complicated. Yeah,
Corinne Caputo
that seems really crazy. Especially because the piece that's still orbiting the moon, I don't know, I would just be like, what if I never make it back around? Like, what if I misalign and we'll have to get him on the next go? I don't know. It's just so scary.
Moiya McTier
Yes. That is the scary concern. And it was Katherine Johnson's math that ensured that the module and the lander would connect -
Corinne Caputo
Thank god.
Moiya McTier
Yeah, so like her math would figure out when they needed to launch the lander off of the moon in order to connect with the module at the right time and vice versa. So it was a lot of very important math that made it possible for us to put humans on the Moon for the first time. So like one one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind all possible because of Katherine Johnson's work and other people's work too. But like, yeah, this episode is about her. So it was her work. Yeah.
Hi, it's Moiya here to give a shout out to our kind, generous patrons over at Patreon, here with my Flemmi voice to do so. So first, I want to thank our latest pre main sequence star Dan shields. Congratulations, Dan on collapsing your gas cloud. I'm so proud of you. Next, I want to thank our newest M dwarf star Laurie friend, fantastic name. And I really hope you're enjoying all of that convective heat transfer in your body, Laurie. And also, as always, thank you so much to our sun like stars Sean Llewellyn, Finn and Ian Williams. I really appreciate your gravitational field keeping us earthlings in your orbit. Thank you again, and you can support us hear your name on this pod and make it to our patrons star chart. All by supporting us on Patreon. You can find that star chart the Patreon info and more at our website www.palebluepod.com. Or just skip the middle site and go straight to patreon.com/pale blue pod. The first 50 People who sign up on our Patreon will be eligible to win a free signed copy of my book The Milky Way and Autobiography of our galaxy. So head on over to patreon.com/pale blue pod to help out your new favorite podcast to hear your name on the show to get some awesome resource lists. And maybe for a chance to win a free signed copy of my book. Either way, I really appreciate you Thank you. Bye.
Corinne Caputo
If you're loving pet blue pod and especially if you're loving Dr. Moiya McTier. You must give her other podcast, exolore a listen, if you didn't know Moiya is also a folklorist. I know she's very, very cool. So if you've ever wondered about what life would be like on different planets, or how writers create your favorite fictional worlds, Moiya has the facts for you on Exolore, Dr. Moiya McTier explores fictional worlds by building them with a panel of expert guests, interviewing professional world builders, and reviewing the merits of worlds that have already been built, you'll learn You'll laugh, and you'll gain an appreciation for how special our planet really is. Exolore is on hiatus until March, which means it's the perfect time to catch up on the more than 65 episodes in the catalogue. Subscribe today by searching exolore in your podcast app, or by going to exolorepod.com.
Moiya McTier
So all of these calculations that she's doing all of these trajectories that she's analyzing, she's using a lot of geometry and trigonometry and calculus to do this work. But it is conceptually kind of simple what she was doing. So when you when you have a rocket or anything that you're launching into space, or if it's orbiting like the moon, for example, you want to know the position and velocity including direction of that object at every point in its orbit. But orbits aren't straight lines orbits are curves, which makes it difficult to do math, because it's a lot easier to do math on straight lines. That's where a lot of the geometry and calculus and a lot of the stuff that we know, it's based on straight lines. So when you want to do calculations on an orbit, it helps to break that circular curvy orbit up into points with straight lines. So there's this one scene from the movie where Katherine Johnson is asked to find the frenet frame of this data using and then she cuts off the person who's asking her she's like, Oh, the gram Schmidt Orthogonalization algorithm. Yeah, I got that. I actually prefer it to Euclidean geometry. It looks so good. Oh, I love that moment so much. But gram Schmidt Orthogonalization is this mathematical process that finds it's called like an orthogonal space. Orthogonal just means perpendicular.
Corinne Caputo
Okay, know that word in my life?
Moiya McTier
I know, the number of words Corinne, that scientists and math people use when they could just use another word like orthogonal, perpendicular and normal. They all mean the same thing. all mean the same thing. In this specific context. Yeah. So the orthogonalization part of that algorithm just means to to put everything in a coordinate system where stuff is perpendicular to each other. So like a straightforward three dimensional vector space where all of the lines are at right angles to each other. So this this Between where she's asked to find the frenet frame and she says she wants to use the gram Schmidt Orthogonalization algorithm. I'm really love saying that. That's just fancy speak for the director of the flight research division, telling Katherine Johnson, that she has to find a useful coordinate system with straight lines at each point along the curve. So she has to do the math to figure out what the curved trajectory would be. And then at each point, along that trajectory, she asked to define a new coordinate system with straight lines so that the math is easier. Well, she was a very smart person couldn't be me. Honestly, same. I have done orthogonalization I have I have done this linear algebra, I've done differential calculus, like I've done all of this shit by hand, and using a computer. And I, I do not remember how to do it by hand. I did it once, in one class, and now the computers do it all for me. And I would never dream of trying to check the computers work. No, in this way.
Corinne Caputo
No, maybe that's why she lives so long though. Her brain was was so sharp
Moiya McTier
as possible, this
Corinne Caputo
is a rock solid study, if you compare my life spans a gathering Johnsons, it's simply because I have a phone in my hand.
Moiya McTier
No other reason I would love to see that longitudinal study. Like it's even has affected I'm not joking, I really would love to see that study. So that that is the math that she had to use to do this trajectory calculation. She also authored, like 26 other papers from the flight research division. And by the time she retired from NASA, and in 1986, she was well respected as a mathematician, as a writer as a researcher like she, she, she did good work, and other people recognized it, which was great. We now know Katherine Johnson's name because of the hit success of Hidden Figures, which was originally a book by Margot Lee Shetterly. The book came out in September of 2016. And the movie came out in January of 2017. Yeah, so like, as soon as Margot Lee Shetterly was working on this,
Corinne Caputo
Someone bought the rights when she got the deal. Yeah, having gone through
Moiya McTier
the book publication process, that is a big deal for someone to buy movie rights to your book before it's been published. And before they can see how the public responds to it. Huge deal. Yeah. But obviously, they saw they predicted that this was going to do really well. And it did. The book itself topped the New York Times bestseller list for weeks. The movie was released just four months later, and was basically an immediate box office hit made like $80 million at the box office pretty quickly. The movie was wildly successful. Yeah, I remember mostly accurate.
Corinne Caputo
Yeah, and mostly accurate. It did feel like a huge deal when it came out. It was like the cultural conversation.
Moiya McTier
Mm hmm. So a lot of the moments in the movie come from the book and they are accurate. There's that moment where John Glenn says he's not going to launch in the rocket unless Katherine Johnson checks the equations. But that scene that I mentioned before, where the guy nails or like he hammers down the bathroom sign that wasn't real. That was that was movie magic. Yeah, a lot of the a lot of the race stuff was definitely downplayed in the movie. You know, you can get into conversations about colorism here, Katherine Johnson was a light skinned person. And I remember reading accounts that said she would just use the white person bathroom without much blowback. So that Bathroom scene really wasn't accurate. But the book brought Katherine Johnson and Dorothy Vaughan and Mary Jackson to the public's attention after the book came out and everyone was like, Oh my God, these ladies are awesome. We need to give them all of the flowers because they deserve them all. Katherine Johnson was awarded the Medal of Freedom by President Obama, which is the highest award that a civilian can earn, or be be awarded. So people started to recognize how important Katherine Johnson was to our nation's history after the book and movie came out and I'm glad we did.
Corinne Caputo
She also won a I looked this up she won what's known as a silver Snoopy award. It's literally Snoopy, the cartoon dog encased in silver and he's wearing an astronaut suit. And it's an award Well NASA Associate says silver shouldn't be best symbolizes the intent and spirit of spaceflight awareness. And astronaut always presents the silver Snoopy because it is the astronauts own Award for Outstanding Performance. So I think it's like an award that astronauts give each other are like NASA employees, like give each other so there's, I mean, this is what I am quickly gathering about it. So I mean, it's kind of like how sad like, actors love the SAG Awards because it's like your peers have given you this award. But she did get a silver Snoopy Award, which, you know, is given the people who've made an outstanding contribution to flight safety and success.
Moiya McTier
Oh my god, and she definitely did that.
Corinne Caputo
So does look like cartoon. Obviously, it is a cartoon, but there's something like, that undercuts the significance of it because it is this like, cartoon dog.
Moiya McTier
I fit Why did they go with Snoopy? Like I would expect that to be under copywriters?
Corinne Caputo
I know, oh, my gosh, and at the bottom of the NASA website, it says, If you have questions or have lost your silver Snoopy award pin, please contact your contact representative.
Moiya McTier
Do you think if we contacted them, we could trick them into sending us a silver snow
Corinne Caputo
because it says you will need to send a copy of your award certificate along with any paperwork that confirms that award. Well, damn it, it looks like we're gonna have to contribute to space flight safety in a significant way.
Moiya McTier
Okay, all right. Well, we'll get on that.
Corinne Caputo
maybe there's some like knockoff of it on Etsy.
Moiya McTier
Corinne, do you do you remember, when you saw Hidden Figures? What was that like for you?
Corinne Caputo
I think so it came out in 2017. Like, winter 2017. We said that was the same winter I think, I think I was when I moved in with my now husband. But it was right around when I started working at the Space Center. So it was a really fun time for me and my space knowledge because it just felt like the whole world is opening up of like what I knew and was getting to learn and and I remember all the kids who were coming the space center were talking about it too, because they were watching it at school and like teachers would prep them for the trip with us and show it in classrooms. It was just so fun that like it to me, it really did feel like everybody was talking about this. And like now everybody knows about this person. Yeah.
Moiya McTier
You know, I thought was such a beautiful day. Like I remember this day, because it was my birthday weekend. It came on January 6 2017. So with my now ex fiance, I he took me to go see it for my birthday. And we went opening weekend to the Magic Johnson theater up in Harlem, which is the only place I'll go to see anything about black people like I went there to see both Black Panther movies, because because I have to Yeah, and because it was opening night The theater was packed. And people were like yelling at the screen and cheering along the entire movie, which was beautiful. I remember when I was I remember so much about this day, I was wearing a dress with moons on the skirt. And over top of that I put it I wore a shirt, a t shirt that said black girl magic. And everyone was in such high spirits to go see this movie. And this happens to me often because I have a resting friendly face anyway. But people were like complimenting my shirt and skirt combo as I walked in, and everyone was was just like very friendly with each other. I cried. I definitely cried during the movie. And then as I left, everyone was talking about it. But I remember seeing this one little girl, this little black girl talking with her family about how she wants to be like Katherine Johnson when she grows up and I just started crying all over again. And so sweet. It was such a powerful moment like that, that specific moment in the theater, but also like a larger cultural moment to see. For the for maybe the first time three very strong, amazing examples of black women scientists and engineers in in the past. That's not something that I had ever seen before. And to see that and then to also see how it was affecting especially young black girls. Yeah. I like I'm tearing up a little just thinking about it. Because it was it was a really, it was a watershed moment. Pun intended. Like it was it was a game changer to see this book and movie come out. Yeah, so I'm really glad that Margot Lee Shetterly wrote down their stories. I'm so glad that Katherine Johnson broke the barriers that she did. Yeah, I'm gonna stop talking because
Corinne Caputo
it just kind of proves that like telling those stories and showing how it can happen especially to kids is so impactful. And I mean, that's one of the things I miss most about the space center have like, of course, everything was like grounded in factual knowledge. But it was so fun to get kids excited about something that can feel so untouchable and so far away. And so impossible
Moiya McTier
so impossible. Yeah, cuz if you if you can't see it, if you don't have examples, yeah. I have it you, you don't necessarily believe you can do it. You know, I, I was very lucky to have a mom who encouraged me to go into the sciences. And I was very lucky to have found astronomy just by chance in college. Not everyone is that lucky? I didn't have examples of scientists who looked like me when I was growing up. So I didn't think I could do it. Yeah. But now people do have those examples. And I'm very proud to to be an example, for young young black girls coming up. But yeah, this is I'm just experiencing a lot of emotions right now.
Corinne Caputo
It isn't a moving emotional thing. And it's so cool that you are kind of another great example of that. Yeah,
Moiya McTier
I'm a not so hidden figure now. And hopefully, there will be many more. Not Hidden Figures coming up doing amazing work in the sciences, but also in the more social side of things, making sure that we continue to push boundaries. Yeah, wherever they're wherever they exist.
Corinne Caputo
And we will tell their stories. Oh, yeah. On this podcast,
Moiya McTier
on this podcast, as long as they're also dead, but don't want to talk about a living. Makes me nervous. Yeah. So whenever, whenever we do these bio episodes, it should never be a spoiler. When when we talk about death, like, we're not going to
Corinne Caputo
one day, we're gonna break the rule and everyone's gonna be like, Oh, my God, they're dead. Oh, we'll
Moiya McTier
break the rule, but we're not going to tell you what it is. Yeah, okay. So that's, that's everything I know about Katherine Johnson and her contributions to science. Well,
Corinne Caputo
it's perfect timing because I think the kitchen is done with food. And what I'm trying to say is the food is ready.
Moiya McTier
Okay, good. I think I think maybe we should really get some food into Korean so you can you can remember how sad Yeah,
Corinne Caputo
I'm a little loopy right now. But wherever you are listening from today, I hope you remember that you are space bye.
Moiya McTier
pale blue pod was created by Moiya McTier and Corrine Caputo with help from the multitude productions team. Our theme music is by Evan Johnston and our cover art is by Shea McMullen. Our audio editing is handled by the incomparable Misha Stanton.
Corinne Caputo
Stay in touch with us and the universe by following at pale blue pod on Twitter and Instagram. Or check out our website pale blue pod.com we're a member of multitude and independent podcast collective and production studio. If you like pale blue pod you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude dot productions.
Moiya McTier
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Corinne Caputo
Thanks for listening to pale blue pod. You'll hear us again next week bye.